Comments on: Learning for games or games for Learning? http://flux.futurelab.org.uk/2007/12/08/learning-for-games-or-games-for-learning/ a blog hosted by Futurelab Fri, 05 Sep 2008 20:48:34 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Lessons from Arden « Learning Games http://flux.futurelab.org.uk/2007/12/08/learning-for-games-or-games-for-learning/#comment-24401 Lessons from Arden « Learning Games Wed, 09 Jan 2008 15:39:04 +0000 http://flux.futurelab.org.uk/2007/12/08/learning-for-games-or-games-for-learning/#comment-24401 [...] Lessons from Arden Posted on January 9, 2008 by Daniel Livingstone I wrote some time ago about the possibility of failure in attempting to develop serious games to teach academic subjects (Failures in GBL). The FutureLab Flux blog has a comment from Ted Castranova on another key issue - that developing good fun games, whether educational or not, may be several orders of magnitude more expensive than Universities can afford. The context here is his Arden: World of Shakespeare project which had to be scaled back from its original goals. Still a project well worth a look, however. [...] [...] Lessons from Arden Posted on January 9, 2008 by Daniel Livingstone I wrote some time ago about the possibility of failure in attempting to develop serious games to teach academic subjects (Failures in GBL). The FutureLab Flux blog has a comment from Ted Castranova on another key issue - that developing good fun games, whether educational or not, may be several orders of magnitude more expensive than Universities can afford. The context here is his Arden: World of Shakespeare project which had to be scaled back from its original goals. Still a project well worth a look, however. [...]

]]> By: Marshal Anderson http://flux.futurelab.org.uk/2007/12/08/learning-for-games-or-games-for-learning/#comment-24377 Marshal Anderson Wed, 09 Jan 2008 10:58:33 +0000 http://flux.futurelab.org.uk/2007/12/08/learning-for-games-or-games-for-learning/#comment-24377 A small point, but one which exercises me a lot, is the diagnosis of 'no fun' is if, somehow, if it had been 'fun' it would have worked. A lot of things motivate us to complete many tasks and next to personal achievement, better levels of understanding, discovery of meaning and purpose, an enthusiasm for knowledge etc., fun seems a poor relation. For several thousand years we have learning without the aid of puzzles and monsters (mostly) and, while they can often brighten up some dull repetitive learning tasks, there's got to be more to learning design than that. A small point, but one which exercises me a lot, is the diagnosis of ‘no fun’ is if, somehow, if it had been ‘fun’ it would have worked. A lot of things motivate us to complete many tasks and next to personal achievement, better levels of understanding, discovery of meaning and purpose, an enthusiasm for knowledge etc., fun seems a poor relation. For several thousand years we have learning without the aid of puzzles and monsters (mostly) and, while they can often brighten up some dull repetitive learning tasks, there’s got to be more to learning design than that.

]]> By: Bob Harrison http://flux.futurelab.org.uk/2007/12/08/learning-for-games-or-games-for-learning/#comment-21918 Bob Harrison Wed, 19 Dec 2007 17:02:18 +0000 http://flux.futurelab.org.uk/2007/12/08/learning-for-games-or-games-for-learning/#comment-21918 Thanks George and Steve...really interesting insights and experiences....partnership and collaboration seem to be important for george and Steve is not sure about the University-Commercial interface. What do you think? Thanks George and Steve…really interesting insights and experiences….partnership and collaboration seem to be important for george and Steve is not sure about the University-Commercial interface. What do you think?

]]> By: George Guild http://flux.futurelab.org.uk/2007/12/08/learning-for-games-or-games-for-learning/#comment-21183 George Guild Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:22:02 +0000 http://flux.futurelab.org.uk/2007/12/08/learning-for-games-or-games-for-learning/#comment-21183 We at the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston have some experience with the creation of games to enhance the teaching and learning of economics. We do not spend anything like the numbers discussed in the article and find that we can produce a product that is fun, attractive, engaging and a valuable instructional tool. Agreed it will never compete with SIMS, but it will be played/used by teachers and students. Our approach is to be the ultimate arbitor of the intellectual content and then work with a vendor who is experienced with game play, flow and creation. In summary the point I wish to make is that it is in the partnership and collaboration between organizations or institutions that make use of their comparative advantage that can reap rewards unobtainable by either on their own. We at the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston have some experience with the creation of games to enhance the teaching and learning of economics. We do not spend anything like the numbers discussed in the article and find that we can produce a product that is fun, attractive, engaging and a valuable instructional tool. Agreed it will never compete with SIMS, but it will be played/used by teachers and students.
Our approach is to be the ultimate arbitor of the intellectual content and then work with a vendor who is experienced with game play, flow and creation.
In summary the point I wish to make is that it is in the partnership and collaboration between organizations or institutions that make use of their comparative advantage that
can reap rewards unobtainable by either on their own.

]]> By: Steve Howell http://flux.futurelab.org.uk/2007/12/08/learning-for-games-or-games-for-learning/#comment-20679 Steve Howell Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:08:46 +0000 http://flux.futurelab.org.uk/2007/12/08/learning-for-games-or-games-for-learning/#comment-20679 All production is preceded by research in commercial companies as much as in universities. I worked a few years for a software company making educational simulations using game-style software development techniques. This took years of experimentation before anything remotely market-able was produced and we went up a lot of blind allies. The trouble with doing this in a commercial company is that you generally have to make the customer pay for all your research, mistakes and dead-ends. The product they get in the end only contains a small fraction of the actual work that was done, so it looks expensive. And the real benefit of all that foundation-laying research - the insites gained by the people doing it - might not be realised in the products to which it directly led. It might be difficult to identify where they spring up. For this reason, I think that the university type of environment may not be the best environment to make commercial products but it's the only place where the research foundations can be laid for the next generation of products. (By "university type of environment" I mean any development environment in which immediate short term commercial success is not the primary driving force.) All production is preceded by research in commercial companies as much as in universities.

I worked a few years for a software company making educational simulations using game-style software development techniques. This took years of experimentation before anything remotely market-able was produced and we went up a lot of blind allies. The trouble with doing this in a commercial company is that you generally have to make the customer pay for all your research, mistakes and dead-ends. The product they get in the end only contains a small fraction of the actual work that was done, so it looks expensive.

And the real benefit of all that foundation-laying research - the insites gained by the people doing it - might not be realised in the products to which it directly led. It might be difficult to identify where they spring up.

For this reason, I think that the university type of environment may not be the best environment to make commercial products but it’s the only place where the research foundations can be laid for the next generation of products.

(By “university type of environment” I mean any development environment in which immediate short term commercial success is not the primary driving force.)

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